Someone asked for the individual HarappaWorld Admixture results for the Gujarati B from HapMap.
To refresh your memory, the Gujarati B are those individuals who do not form part of the big closely clustered Gujarati cluster.
I decided to include HGDP Sindhis as well as Gujaratis, Rajasthanis, Maharashtrians, etc from Harappa Ancestry Project in the list so the Gujaratis can be compared to the people of neighboring regions.
You can check the spreadsheet too.
UPDATE: I have added the Thathai Bhatia and Halai Bhatia participants that I had forgotten.
Will you please update the Xing individual results as well? I can only find individual results for K=11. I would like to see the results for K=16.
Zack, you said "the Gujarati B are those individuals who do not form part of the big closely clustered Gujarati cluster."
Do you have any information on the religious background of these donors? Would it be safe to assume all of them are Hindu? Or could there potentially be a few Muslims in there? What is your opinion?
The only thing we know about the HapMap Gujaratis (Gujarati-a and Gujarati-b) is that they live in Houston, Texas.
Since the Gujarati A cluster very closely together and with the two Patel participants in my project, I have conjectured that Gujarati A belong to some Patel community.
Thanks Zack. I appreciate the prompt response.
Could you then say with utmost confidence based on the autosomal admixtures breakdown that the Gujarati_a look to be from the same caste ie some sort of Patel, whereas the Gujarati_b are overall representative of the multi-faith background of the various Gujarati castes in Houston?
Or would you say Gujarati_b are also from the same caste/organization as one another, but are instead all upper-caste Hindus such as Brahmins and Rajputs?
Because if that's the case, then I find it hard to reconcile how non-Brahmins from the same organization would have less ASI than the Brahmins of their group.
Regards
Looks like there are definitely some Brahmins and potentially some Muslims in the Gujarati B samples. I took the liberty of getting rough calculation of their ASI levels using the linear regression formula (ASI = 2.5218942 + 0.8104836 * S_INDIAN).
These ones look like they may be Brahmins:
gujarati-b_NA20850:
South Indian 36%
Baloch 39%
Caucasian: 6%
NE Euro: 12%
NE Asian: 2%
Mediterranean: 2%
ASI: 31.7%
gujarati-b_NA20862:
South Indian 36%
Baloch 39%
Caucasian: 4%
NE Euro: 16%
Beringian: 2%
Mediterranean: 2%
ASI: 31.7%
gujarati-b_NA20881:
South Indian 39%
Baloch 39%
Caucasian: 7%
NE Euro: 10%
Mediterranean: 1%
SW Asian: 1%
ASI: 34.13%
gujarati-b_NA20885:
South Indian 41%
Baloch 39%
Caucasian: 6%
NE Euro: 10%
SE Asian: 1%
Mediterranean: 0%
SW Asian: 0%
ASI: 35.75%
gujarati-b_NA20890
South Indian 40%
Baloch 39%
Caucasian: 3%
NE Euro: 11%
Siberian: 1%
Mediterranean: 2%
SW Asian: 1%
ASI: 34.94%
gujarati-b_NA20907
South Indian 42%
Baloch 38%
Caucasian: 3%
NE Euro: 12%
SE Asian: 1%
Mediterranean: 2%
SW Asian: 2%
ASI: 36.56%
gujarati-b_NA20910
South Indian 35%
Baloch 42%
Caucasian: 5%
NE Euro: 13%
Siberian: 1%
Beringian: 1%
Mediterranean: 1%
ASI: 30.89%
The average ASI is 33.67%.
Now, there are a few that I think might be "potentially" some Muslims too due to some similarity to the current Muslim participants and elevated Caucasus components or Mediterranean/SW Asian components. In particular, gujarati_b_NA20858 has very similar results to HRP0213 Gujarati Khoja Muslim.
These are the few that I think may be Muslims. Now, we don't have any Hindu Sindhi samples to compare these two so them being Muslim is more based on their elevated Caucasian components (and a few having traces of the Mediterranean and SW Asian components) and lack of Hindu Sindhi samples.
gujarati-b_NA20858:
S Indian 28%
Baloch 48%
Caucasian 12%
NE Euro 7%
SE Asian 1%
Siberian 1%
Mediterranean 2%
SW Asian: 0%
ASI: 25.215%
gujarati-b_NA20870:
S Indian 27%
Baloch 45%
Caucasian 15%
NE Euro 9%
SE Asian 1%
Siberian 1%
Beringian: 2%
Mediterranean: 0%
SW Asian: 0%
ASI: 24.405%
gujarati-b_NA20872:
S Indian 33%
Baloch 43%
Caucasian 14%
NE Euro 6%
SE Asian 1%
Siberian 1%
Beringian: 2%
Mediterranean: 0%
SW Asian: 0%
ASI: 29.27% ASI
gujarati-b_NA20904:
S Indian 33%
Baloch 45%
Caucasian 4%
NE Euro 9%
SE Asian 1%
American 2%
Mediterranean: 5%
SW Asian: 1%
ASI: 29.27% ASI
So, gujarati-b_NA20904 I am very unsure about. Has the potential to be Muslim but could be Hindu as well. The lowered Caucasian is in a way compensated for by the elevated Mediterranean and trace of SW Asian. However, this individual could be Brahmin or some other upper caste potentially.
gujarati-b_NA21108:
S Indian 36%
Baloch 44%
Caucasian 6%
NE Euro 7%
SE Asian 1%
American 2%
Mediterranean: 4%
SW Asian: 2%
ASI: 31.7%
I did not average the ASI for the potential Muslims because I am still rather unsure about if they are Muslim or their true origins.
Some other individuals that have interesting results but I am rather curious about are as follows:
gujarati-b_NA20873:
S Indian 43%
Baloch 38%
Caucasian 4%
NE Euro 9%
SE Asian 1%
Siberian 1%
Mediterranean: 3%
SW Asian: 0%
gujarati-b_NA20898:
S Indian 38%
Baloch 41%
Caucasian 9%
NE Euro 9%
NE Asian 1%
American 1%
Mediterranean: 0%
SW Asian: 0%
Personally, I think gujarati-b_NA20898 has the potential to be an upper caste like a Brahmin or Rajput.
@Zack
Thank you very much for putting this up. I really appreciate it.
I think the samples that show higher Caucasian, may be Hindu Kutchi Gujaratis or Lohana Gujaratis. These communities have roots in the Sindh region of Pakistan, so it wouldn't be a surprise if they turn out genetically similar to their Sindhi Hindu counterparts.
Yes, we don't have any confirmed Hindu Sindhi samples so its speculation on my part that some of these samples represent what Sindhi Hindu samples might look like. If true, Kutchi Hindu and Muslims would be analogous to the differences and similarities between Punjabi Muslims and Hindus. We'll just have to wait for further confirmation.
@Paul
Wrong. The Gujarati Muslim samples are completely different from the gujarati_b samples that show higher Caucasion. Even the Sindhi Muslim samples are very different from the gujarati_b samples. And that statement you made about all these samples belonging to Muslim donors is very irresponsible.
The samples you have tagged as 'Muslim samples' are quite different in their admixture components to the Gujarati Muslim samples we have so far. For instance, every Sindhi Muslim sample shows SW Asian admixture as does the Khoja Muslim Gujarati:
sindhi_HGDP001634%
sindhi_HGDP001654%
sindhi_HGDP001674%
sindhi_HGDP00169 4%
sindhi_HGDP00171 2%
sindhi_HGDP00173 2%
sindhi_HGDP00177 2%
sindhi_HGDP00179 3%
sindhi_HGDP00181 3%
sindhi_HGDP00183 3%
sindhi_HGDP00185 1%
sindhi_HGDP00187 2%
sindhi_HGDP00189 1%
sindhi_HGDP00191 3%
sindhi_HGDP00192 3%
sindhi_HGDP00195 4%
sindhi_HGDP00197 3%
sindhi_HGDP00201 2%
sindhi_HGDP00205 3%
sindhi_HGDP00206 1%
sindhi_HGDP00208 3%
sindhi_HGDP00210 2%
sindhi_HRP0062 3%
^Whereas, that SW component is completely lacking in gujarati_b samples that show higher Caucasian vis NE Euro count:
gujarati-b_NA20858 0%
gujarati-b_NA20858 0%
gujarati-b_NA20870 0%
gujarati-b_NA20872 0%
In-fact, other than higher Caucasian, there is no commonality at all.
In-addition, to SW Asian, there are also other exotic admixture components present in the Gujarati Muslim samples, which are not found in the gujarati_b samples:
Gujarati Sunni Vohra HRP0294
NE Asian: 2%
SW Asian: 4%
E African: 1%
Gujarati Muslim Patel HRP0265
SW Asian: 6%
San: 1%
E African: 1%
Gujarati Muslim Khoja HRP0213
NE Asian: 3%
SW Asian: 1%
W African: 1%
^There is a tendency for Muslim South Asian samples to showcase exotic admixture- while the pattern among Hindu samples is to not show such foreign and unusual components.
Lastly, given the demographics here in the States- odds are against there being any Muslim or non-Hindu donors for the gujarati_b genome survey. There are very few Gujarati Muslims in the U.S., as opposed to the U.K. where they are more concentrated.
In all likelihood, the sample donors were from a particular community of Gujaratis. Such communities tend to be of a particular religious denomination (i.e. Gujarati Hindu Samaj communities across the States), typically cordoned off to outsiders (non-Hindus). Considering those factors, the odds for there being Muslim or even a Christian Gujarati (like I am) are slim to none.
Speculation about the community Gujarati B and Sindhi samples belong to is likely to be wrong.
Why are you so convinced they are Hindu Kutchi Gujaratis or Hindu Lohana Gujaratis? Are those communities especially large in Houston? We have no Hindu Sindhi samples as you agreed so your conjecture they are Kutchi or Lohanas is just as presumptuous as my opinion that they might “possibly†be Muslims. In some ways even more so because you’re also presuming that Sindhi Hindus will be essentially the same as Sindhi Muslims and the Kutchi and Lohanas (who we have no samples of) will be similar to the Sindhi Hindus.
Also, note that I never said they are definitely Muslims because I am still unsure. I only suggested they might “possibly†be Muslim due to the elevated Caucasian components almost all had and trace amounts of Mediterranean or other “exotic†components in 2/4 I believe.
Yes, speculation just like I speculate that they may be Muslim Gujaratis. Also, the only two confirmed Hindu Punjabis we have are the two Brahmins and I think the one Khatri sample may be Hindu if I remember correctly. The one Khatri sample is HRP0178 who is approximately 26.836% ASI.
Her (HRP0178) results are as follows:
South Indian: 30%
Baloch: 42%
Caucasian: 12%
NE Euro: 12%
American: 1%
SW Asian: 1%
HRP0004: Punjabi Brahmin
South Indian: 33%
Baloch: 41%
Caucasian: 13%
NE Euro: 10%
Siberian: 1%
American: 1%
Beringian: 1%
ASI: 29.27%
HRP0019: Punjabi Brahmin
South Indian: 35%
Baloch: 40%
Caucasian: 8%
NE Euro: 11%
NE Asian: 1%
American: 1%
Mediterranean: 2%
SW Asian: 1%
ASI: 30.89%
The Pakistani Punjabi Arain (Muslims) had these averages:
South Indian: 31%
Baloch: 44%
Caucasian: 10%
NE Euro: 7%
SE Asian: 1%
Siberian: 1%
Mediterranean: 2%
SW Asina: 2%
ASI: 27.647%
At the end of the day, we can’t compare the two as we don’t have enough Hindu Punjabi samples. There are a few individual Pakistani Punjabi samples as well. For example, HRP0283 who is a Muslim Punjabi Jatt. So, we really don’t know the differences between Hindus and Muslims. We can better compare Sikhs and Muslims but the Sikh groups are much more diverse caste/tribe wise than the Muslims who are mostly Arain samples from Xing.
HRP0283: Pakistani Punjabi Jatt (Muslim)
South Indian: 30%
Baloch: 39%
Caucasian: 13%
NE Euro: 8%
SE Asian: 2%
Beringian: 3%
SW Asian: 2%
ASI: 26.85%
There are differences and similarities. Gujarati_b_NA20858 had nearly identical results to HRP0213 save other than a few differences. Both had elevated Caucasian components as well as trace amounts of either Mediterranean or SW Asian. Even their East Eurasian components were essentially the same (SE Asian + Siberian + American + Beringian = 4% for NA20858 vs. 3% NE Asian for HRP0213). However, the 1% components are potentially just noise. Regardless, the 4 major components of South Indian, Baloch, Caucasian and NE Euro are exactly the same other than by 1% in the Baloch component. Both also have 1% SW Asian.
See here:
gujarati_b_NA20858:
S Indian 28%
Baloch 48%
Caucasian 12%
NE Euro 7%
SE Asian 1%
Siberian 1%
American 1%
Beringian 1%
Mediterranean 2%
SW Asian 1%
Compare with HRP0213 Gujarati Khoja Muslim:
S Indian 28%
Baloch 47%
Caucasian 13%
NE Euro 7%
NE Asian 3%
Papuan 1%
SW Asian 1%
W African 1%
Even gujarati_b_NA20870 is not very different overall. Although, the individual lacks any Med and SW Asian components that does not automatically mean the individual cannot be Muslim. Individual variation always exists. Also, a few of the Sindhis only have 1% and many only 2% of the SW Asian component. In regards to the Mediterranean component, many of the Sindhis only have 0 or 1% of the component despite being Muslim. sindhi_HGDP00171 and sindhi_HGDP00179 and sindhi_HGDP00201 all have 0% of the component. What this means is that an individual can be a possibly slightly admixed Muslim without trace amounts of the Med and SW Asian components as long the indiviudal’s results compensate for it through an elevated Caucasian component.
gujarati_b_NA20870:
S Indian 27%
Baloch 45%
Caucasian 15%
NE Euro 9%
SE Asian 1%
Siberian 1%
Beringian 2%
Mediterranean: 0%
SW Asian: 0%
Also, how it is really irresponsible when I never made that statement? I said it was “possible†they were Muslims but that I was unsure. It’s just a conjecture similar to yours.
In addition, I am curious as to why an “admixed†Muslim must have a SW Asian component in order to be considered as such? Is there a consensus about which components they must have and in which amounts? I thought as long the individual showed signs of either elevated Caucasian, Mediterranean or SW Asian components along with lower South Indian, there was a “possibility†of them being Muslim. There are also a few cases of non-Muslims with either Mediterranean or SW Asian components so it is conceivably possible some Muslims lack them if they are compensated by an elevated Caucasian component alone. For example, the Sikh Punjabi Jatts have 2% of the Mediterranean component and 1% of the SW Asian while the Haryanvi Jatts have 3% of the Mediterranean component.
In regards to gujarati-b_NA20904:
South Indian: 33%
Baloch: 45%
Caucasian: 4%
NE Euro: 9%
SE Asian: 1%
American: 2%
Mediterranean: 5%
SW Asian: 1%
This individual is definitely different than the Gujarati Muslim and Sindhis Muslim as he lacks the highly elevated Caucasian component but has a very elevated Mediterranean component. Now, this one I am very curious about. Could be an upper caste Hindu or even Muslim as the individual’s exotic components (Caucasian + Med + SW Asian = 10%). Overall, I am rather unsure about this one.
For gujarati-b_NA20872:
S Indian 33%
Baloch 43%
Caucasian 14%
NE Euro 6%
SE Asian 1%
Siberian 1%
Beringian: 2%
Mediterranean: 0%
SW Asian: 0%
I am very unsure about this one as well. They have a very high Caucasian component at 14% and have some slightly exotic Beringian components at 2%. This individual could definitely be an upper caste in my opinion. Just not sure what type since they don’t have a Brahmin-like profile.
At the end of the day, I still believe it is “possible†for gujarati_b_NA20870 and gujarati_b_NA20870 to be Muslims. In the case of gujarati-b_NA20872 and gujarati-b_NA20904, things could go either way but I am starting to lean toward upper caste Hindus. Of course, all still conjectures unless we found out the individual’s religious and caste identities.
As for the exotic admixture components in the Muslim Gujarati samples we have, nothing really ties them together other some trace amounts of exotic components. Also, for all of them, the 1% results could just be noise.
Even some of the Gujarati B’s have somewhat exotic admixture:
See here:
gujarati_b_NA20858:
SE Asian 1%
Siberian 1%
American 1%
Beringian 1%
Mediterranean 2%
SW Asian 1%
gujarati-b_NA20904:
SE Asian: 1%
American: 2%
Mediterranean: 5%
SW Asian: 1%
gujarati_b_NA20870:
SE Asian 1%
Siberian 1%
Beringian 2%
Most of the 1% is probably just noise. Yes, I understand there are very few Gujarati Muslims in the U.S. as opposed to the U.K. and most Gujaratis here are predominantly Hindu. Still, Muslim Gujaratis do exist and even in Houston. A quick search on the infamous shaadi shows that.
Shia Muslim Gujarati from Houston, TX:
http://www.shaadi.com/profile?profileid=TSH22116873
Dawoodhi Bohra Gujarati Muslim from Houston, TX:
http://www.shaadi.com/matrimonial/1SH23004244
Shia Imami Ismaili Gujarati Muslim from Houston, TX:
http://www.shaadi.com/matrimonial/2SH97196153
Sunni Hanafi Memon Gujarati from Houston, TX:
http://www.shaadi.com/profile?profileid=USH25285750
There are plenty of more in Houston, TX. Searching for Muslim Gujaratis in the US gets you a fair amount of hits on Dawoodhi Bohra and a few Shia Imami Ismaili in Houston, TX. This doesn’t mean I’m saying those samples are definitely Muslim but just suggesting that it is definitely "possible" some Muslim samples are in the group.
Anyways, there is really no need to argue over such trivial things because we're arguing over something we really don't know. Even the "presumably" Brahmin samples with the elevated NE Euro samples are not confirmed as Brahmins so our conjectures on whether samples might be Hindu or Muslim is even more ridiculous don't you think? We have little evidence to support it and are just guessing at the end of the day.
(The figures you put up for the gujarati-b_NA20858 sample are wrong. That sample does not have any exotic admix. I fixed it for you below.)
My conecture is different from yours, in that yours is highly unlikely to be true. In-fact, your conjecture has already been proven wrong considering that all those Gujrati samples in question are different to the Muslim Kutchi and Muslim Sindhi samples in admixture, but more on that later. I would like to mention now, that I have actually been correct about the Gujarati_b samples not all being Brahmin derived. In-fact, check our PM's on anthroscape, I actually predicted that those few Gujarati_b samples with the lowest scoring ASI would be (similar in admixture to) Kutchi Gujaratis and as we can all see- my predition came true. All this is actually less guesswork on my part and more about having knowledge about my own ethnic Gujarati community. It's only common sense that since I am a Gujrati- I would know more about my Gujrati people than a Punjabi or a Bengali would.
Anyway, I never suggested that Hindu Sindhis would be identical to Muslim Sindhis, I said that they would be similar, with the exception of Hindu Sindhi samples lacking the foreign components that Muslim Sindhi samples typically display. Why do you claim that Sindhi Hindus will be very different from Sindhi Muslims? Provide me with a reasonable explanation for that. You also made similar claims about Punjabi Muslims and Hindus even though a Hindu Khatri Punjabi shows similar results to the Pakistani Arian samples. If you are suggesting that the Khatri sample is an outlier- than that means that the majority of Indian Khatri Punjabis will have higher ASI in general than Pakistani Punjabis. But why do you consider that Khatri sample is an outlier?
And no, there are no Kutchi Hindu samples available, but there is Kutchi Muslim sample- the Gujarati Muslim Khoja HRP0213, which is nearly identical in admixture to the Sindhi Muslim samples:
Gujarati Muslim Khoja HRP0213
South Indian: 28%
Baloch: 47%
Caucasian: 13%
NE Euro: 7%
SE Asian 0%
Siberian: 0%
NE Asian: 3%
Papuan: 1%
American: 0%
Beringian: 0%
Mediterranean 0%
SW Asian 1%
San 0%
E African 0%
Pygmy 0%
W African 1%
sindhi hgdp
South Indian: 29%
Baloch: 46%
Caucasian: 10%
NE Euro: 6%
SE Asian 0%
Siberian: 1%
NE Asian: 0%
Papuan: 0%
American: 1%
Beringian: 1%
Mediterranean 2%
SW Asian 3%
San 0%
E African 0%
Pygmy 0%
W African 1%
^Since Kutchi Muslims are similar to their Sindhi Muslim counterparts, its then reasonable to conclude that Kutchi Hindus (such as the Lohanas- whom have origins in the Sindh region of Pakistan) might also be similar to Sindhi Hindus, but for certain subtle differences and that is exactly what we see with the Gujarati_b samples in question. The gujarati-b_NA20858, gujarati-b_NA20870, and gujarati-b_NA20872 are similar to, but for certain key differences to the Muslim Gujarati and Sindhi Muslm samples. Take a look:
gujarati-b_NA20858
South Indian: 28%
Baloch: 47%
Caucasian: 12%
NE Euro: 7%
SE Asian 1%
Siberian: 1%
NE Asian: 0%
Papuan: 0%
American: 1%
Beringian: 1%
Mediterranean 2%
SW Asian 0%
San 0%
E African 0%
Pygmy 0%
W African 0%
^This is the real admix breakdown for NA20858. The one you had put up had wrong figures.
gujarati-b_NA20870
South Indian: 27%
Baloch: 45%
Caucasian: 15%
NE Euro: 9%
SE Asian 1%
Siberian: 1%
NE Asian: 0%
Papuan: 0%
American: 0%
Beringian: 2%
Mediterranean 0%
SW Asian 0%
San 0%
E African 0%
Pygmy 0%
W African 0%
gujarati-b_NA20872
South Indian: 33%
Baloch: 43%
Caucasian: 14%
NE Euro: 6%
SE Asian 0%
Siberian: 1%
NE Asian: 0%
Papuan: 1%
American: 1%
Beringian 0%
Mediterranean 0%
SW Asian 0%
San 0%
E African 0%
Pygmy 0%
W African 0%
^The difference is that every Sindhi Muslim sample and the Kutchi Muslim sample displays SW Asian and trace African, but none of these Gujarati_b samples have those components. If the donors for these Gujarati samples are of the same (ethnioreligous) background as the Sindhi and Khoja Gujarati donors- then why do they lack the admixture elements that, according to what we have on file, are so characteristic of the Kutchi and Sindhi Muslims? There has to be a reasonable explanation for this.
The only possible explanation to account for the lack of SW and trace African in gujarati-b_NA20858, gujarati-b_NA20870, and gujarati-b_NA20872 - is that the donors belonged to a community that practiced strict endogamy and did not intermarry with Kutchi Muslims like the Khoja Gujarati or Sindhi Muslims. The only reason why that would be is if the community were of a differenct religious sect and not Muslims. And to clarify- SW Asian is a foreign component (peaks in Saudi Arabia if I remember correctly) and not native to India. It is a component that is present in all Sindhi Muslim samples as well as the Kutchi Muslim sample. Even the Balochi samples have considerable SW Asian and trace African:
balochi hgdp 24
South Indian 14%
Baloch 54%
Caucasian 14%
NE Euro 3%
SE Asian 1%
Siberian 0%
NE Asian 0%
Papuan 0%
American 0%
Beringian 1%
Mediterranean 2%
SW Asian 9%
San 0%
E African 1%
Pygmy 0%
W African 1%
^In-fact, the SW Asian in the Baloch is most likely the source for the SW Asian in the Sindhi and Kutchi Muslims. The Gujarati samples in question, do not have this component because they are most probably derived from Hindus Donors whom, due to Caste and religion based endogamy, have not had the opportunity to intermarry with either the Kutchi Muslims, Sindhi Muslims or Baloch populations. (If they had- would display these components at the very least, in trace amounts)
"thought as long the individual showed signs of either elevated Caucasian, Mediterranean or SW Asian components along with lower South Indian, there was a “possibility†of them being Muslim. "
- gujarati-b_NA20883 also has higher Caucasian than NE Euro- so does gujarati-b_NA20894, gujarati-b_NA20895, gujarati-b_NA20897, gujarati-b_NA20908, gujarati-b_NA21097, gujarati-b_NA21092, gujarati_HRP0292 Gujarati Jain HRP0292, maharashtrian_HRP0047, maharashtrian_HRP0273, maharashtrian_HRP0298, rajasthani_HRP0227, rajasthani_HRP0259, rajasthani_HRP0307 and the Irula Tribals from Andhra Pradesh. So unless you are suggesting that all these samples belong to Mulim donors, I think we can safe to say that there really isn't any definitive higher Causian = Muslim trend. Elevated Caucasian is most likely just charasterictic of certain Native Pakistanis, paticularly the Sindhi and Balochi populations, irrespective of religious affiliation.
"Yes, I understand there are very few Gujarati Muslims in the U.S. as opposed to the U.K. and most Gujaratis here are predominantly Hindu. Still, Muslim Gujaratis do exist and even in Houston. A quick search on the infamous shaadi shows that. "
- There are not "plenty of more" Muslim Gujaratis. I actually searched the Shaddi site for Kutchi Muslim Brides and Grooms but I got very few results. On the other hand, there are so many Kutchi Hindus in Texas:
http://www.shaadi.com/profile?profileid=SH86395189
^A Hindu Bhatia.
http://www.jeevansathi.com/groom-Gujarati-Kutchi-Hindu-Lohana-VVV1299-profiles
^A Hindu Lohana.
http://www.jeevansathi.com/bride-Gujarati-Kutchi-Hindu-Vaishnav-ZAST6628-profiles
http://www.jeevansathi.com/bride-Gujarati-Kutchi-Hindu-Vaishnav-Vanik-WUT2949-profiles
^Kutchi Hindu Vaishnav Vania and Vanik
http://www.jeevansathi.com/groom-Gujarati-Kutchi-Hindu-Leva-Patidar-WZX5432-profiles
^Kutchi Hindu, Leva Patidar
http://www.shaadi.com/profile?txtprofileid=SH84863474&aff_url_param=AFF_URL_PARAM&retrg=T25MaW5l
^Hindu Lohana
Besides, those supposed Muslim donors in Texas cannot be just the lower Caste Hindu convert types, not even the Muslim Patel types. They would have to be the Kutchi Muslim (like the Khoja) or Memon types in paticular, since Gujaratis Muslims of other backgrounds have very different admixture components than the Sindhi or Khoja samples. Moreover, if the source for the samples is an ethnic Gujarati enclave, which is probably the case (I'm speaking from general experience with the Gujarati communities here in the U.S.), then the chances for non-Hindu donors are even less. In-fact, I believe ther are a larger number of Gujarti Christians in the U.S., than Gujarati Muslims, yet I don't think there are any Christian donors among the Gujarati samples (since Christians don't exactly intermingle or associate with Hindus), so the chance for Muslim donors is even less likely.
Actually we do have a Sindhi Hindu sample: HRP0062.
Also, I didn't realize this before but two of the Sindhis have non-negligible levels of West African admixture (at 10% and 8%) respectively while one other has it at 4%. Specifically, for sindhi_HGDP00173, who has the lowest South Indian component of all the Sindhis at 21%, the West African admixture might be responsible for lowering it. I heard that some Baloch and Sindhi samples were through own from the original HGDP samples because of significant West African admixture but I guess these few passed the threshold. It's interesting because if these 2-3 individuals are excluded, it increases the ASI average for the Sindhis by about 0.5%. Not much at all but these West African admixed Sindhis are definitely unique. I'm curious whether this admixture comes from intermixing with the Makrani or even from Siddi admixture somehow. I am more inclined to believe they intermixed with Makrani Baloch though.
Sorry, a typo. "Through own" = thrown out.
Well, someone thinks that those "potential Muslms" you posted with a lowered ASI than the Brahmins are Kutchi Hindus, but if that's the case, then why would all these Hindu Lohanas have less ASI than the Brahmins from their community? That does not make sense.
We simply don't know for sure without Sindhi Hindu samples. For all we know, Hindu Sindhis and thus Hindu Kutchis might be slightly more ASI than their Muslim counterparts due to many Muslim Sindhis and potentially some of their Kutchi counterparts having Baloch or even some MENA admixture. What makes me question them being Hindu is their Caucasian components being much higher than their NE Euro components and similarities to some of the presumably Balochified Sindhi. There is always a possibility some or even all are Hindu but I have my doubts about that.
I do know there are definitely some Muslim Gujaratis in the USA with one of the most common being the Dawoodi Bohra who are scattered across North America but can be found in Houston, TX if the Gujarati B samples are from there.
Dawoodi Bohra's are not Kutchis. They would not show similar admixture patterns that the Sindhi or Kutchi Muslim samples show. Not all Gujarati Muslims have outside admixture making them less ASI, and not all are Kutchi type Muslims either.
And the Muslim Sindhi samples are not Balochified. A few samples could be Balochi admixed, but not all of them. It's just convenient to label them "Balochified" because that would explain why their components are different from that of the Gujrati_b samples that you have erroneously dubbed Kutchi Muslims.
And higher Caucasian does not mean anything considering that even the Hindu Kashmiri Pandits and the Pushtikar Brahmin samples showcase elevated Caucasian count. Higher Caucasian is more than likely just charasteristic of certain Native Pakistani populations, namely Balochis and Sindhis.
There are also very few Gujarati Muslim's here in the States. Hell, there is good chance that Christian Gujaratis outnumber Muslim Gujaratis in the U.S. since there are just so many of us here. Really, the idea you are purpoting that they are all Muslims is highly unlikely.
a good 35-40% of pakistani sindhis are mixed with baloch or have baloch ancestry, they call themselves sindhi though. the hindu ones are not mixed with baloch, thats why they will defiantly have more ASI and less west asian. The best observation of this is in the physical trait differences between the muslim and hindus of sindh. the hindu ones clearly look (indian) while the muslim ones tend to show features that are more baloch or west asian
We don't have Hindu Sindhi samples, but we do have Kutchi Hindu samples. gujarati-b_NA20858, gujarati-b_NA20870, and gujarati-b_NA20872 are Kutchi Hindus, because they lack the SW Asian and exotic African components that all Sindhi Muslim samples, the Kutchi Muslim sample and Balochi Samples display.
If Hindu Kutchis could display such low ASI scores, then I am sure Hindu Sindhis will as-well. Besides, a lot of the Kutchi Muslims, like the Memons, were Hindus centuries back that converted to Islam.
The 'Father of Pakistan'- Mohammed Ali Jinnah is also a Kutchi, with pure Hindu roots not too far back and we can clearly see what he looks like:
"Poonja Gokuldas Meghji, the patriarch of the family is the paternal grandfather of Muhammad Ali Jinnah and Fatima Jinnah. He was a Hindu from Paneli village in Gondal state in Kathiawar who embraced Islam."
"Jinnahbai Poonja was a prosperous Gujarati merchant. He moved to Karachi from Kathiawar, because of his business partnership with Grams Trading Company whose regional office was set up in Karachi. He moved to Karachi before Muhammad Ali Jinnah's birth. He and his wife had 7 children"
It seems to me that if you are a native Gujarati, you should know the difference between Kutch and Kathiawar.
Also, even if a third of Sindhis are Balochified, then only a third of the Sindhi Muslim samples should have different results from the Gujarati samples. But as we can all see, they are fairly homogenous.
I don't think we have any Balochified samples because Balochi samples display higher SW Asian at 9%. If the Sindhi samples were Balochified, we would see similar SW Asian levels as the Balochi samples.
I never said they were Kutchis. I was just presenting evidence that there are Muslim Gujaratis living in Houston and hence the possibility there are Muslim Gujaratis in the Gujarati B samples. You however, vehemently, denying this "possibility" for whatever reasons.
Also, how many Kutchi Muslim samples do we have? 1 of 2? I am not familiar with the exact origins of the Khoja, Muslim Patel and the Muslim Vohra.
How do you know they are not Balocified and that only a few are? What makes you an authority on Sindhi Muslims? I was indicating it was a "possibility" some of them were Balochified due to their scores:
South Indian: 29%
Baloch: 46%
Caucasian: 10%
NE Euro: 6%
Siberian: 1%
American: 1%
Beringian: 1%
Mediterranean: 2%
SW Asian: 3%
W African: 1%
Also, the exotic W African is definitely real. Two of the Sindhi samples showed real W African admixture and I think Parasar mentioned in his comments that some of the Pashtun and Sindhi samples were thrown out due to W African admixture. This W African admixture either has to have come from the Siddi or possibly the more W African admixed Makrani Baloch (they only showed 4% W African on average but individually some are definitely more mixed than the average).
If Sindhis can have real W African admixture, what's to stop them from having Baloch admixture considering how much history they share with the Baloch? Six of the the samples have 48-53% of the Baloch component as well. If we lower that threshold to 46%, it's 12/24 or 50% of the 24 samples. Considering that the Baloch have 54% of the Baloch component and the Brahui have 58% of the component, it is definitely plausible that some are Balochified.
Also, you keep purporting that Muslims must have exotic components? That does not have to be the case. If some of the Sindhi Muslims were Balochified, it does not have to show up through their SW Asian admixture considering the Baloch themselves only have 9% of the component. It could show up through other things like extremely elevated Baloch scores that are closing on the average of the Baloch themselves.
You mentioned that I erroneously claimed the Gujarati B samples with lower ASI levels are Kutchi Muslims? When have I done that? I don't recall making that claim whatsoever.
Finally, yes, I agree higher Caucasian does not necessarily mean much when average populations consistently show it like the Sindhi Muslims (10%), Punjabi Arains (10%), Kashmiri Pandits (12%), 21/23 of the individual Punjabi samples having an average of 10%, Haryana Jatts having 9%, etc. In the case of the Pushtikar Brahmin, it is only 1 sample but if other Rajasthani Brahmins showed similar trends after a few samples, it would be the case as well.
So, higher Caucasian does not really mean much concerning indigenous Pakistani populations such as the Baloch, Pashtun, Punjabi or Sindhi. It is a characteristic of Pakistani and perhaps some Northwest/West Indian populations.
Also, you've repeated numerous times that there are very few Muslim Gujaratis in the US but a Muslim Gujarati has claimed that there are some established Muslim Gujarati communities here in the states even if they aren't large in numbers. I don't know the number of Muslim or Christian Gujaratis here in the US but it's a simple fact that they exist. Now, unless you have lived in every state that holds Muslim Gujarati populations, I think I trust the opinion of a Muslim Gujarati themselves on this even if they are not American.
Finally, if you've read any of later comments, I suggested that it's possible 2/4 of the samples with lower ASI levels or somewhat interesting results (like gujarati-b_NA20904 with the 5% Med score) are upper caste Hindus rather than Muslims. Although, I am rather unsure. The other two I believe are still "possibly" Muslim but what is actually "irresponsible" is you putting words in my mouth. I have repeated numerous times that what I am suggesting is not facts but my opinion which is open to change depending on the newer samples that come in.
@Skipper
Kutchi Hindu samples? It’s quite interesting for you to imply that it is “fact†that gujarati-b_NA20858 is a Kutchi Hindu. Especially, when the individual results are nearly carbon copies of the Muslim Gujarati Khoja other than the lack of 3% of the NE Asian component and 1% of the West African component. The W African could very much be noise and plenty of individual South Asian samples (including Hindus and some Sikhs) show minor amounts of 1-3% of exotic East Eurasian admixture. The lack it in gujarati-b_NA20858 in no way proves the individual is a Kutchi Hindu. That claim in in itself is more presumptuous than the claims of “possibility†that I made. I never declared my comments as anything close to facts. Also, gujarati-b_NA20858 does display 2% of the Mediterranean component. Not to mention the 1% of the SE Asian, Siberian, American and Beringian components for a total of 4%. The Mediterranean component is not any less exotic than the SW Asian component and the 1% of those East Eurasian components is just as noisy as the 1% of West African you are pointing out in HRP0213, the Muslim Khoja.
Also, what evidence do you have to suggest that gujarati-b_NA20872 is a Hindu Kutchi as well? We have exactly 0 Hindu Kutchi or Hindu Sindhi samples. The claims you’re making based off a lack of 3% SW Asian in the Sindhi Muslims and 1% W African in HRP0213 in the Muslim Khoja are very incautious to say the least.
Like Zack mentioned earlier, there is a high possibility the conjectures (at least I am pointing out my claims are not facts) we are making about the religion of the samples are very much wrong and something I am willing to admit. You, however, seem to be confident that they are all Hindu based on a lack of minor amounts (3%) SW Asian admixture and noisy 1% W African admixture in HRP0213.
You know what I love about the comment below?
“If Hindu Kutchis could display such low ASI scores, then I am sure Hindu Sindhis will as-well.â€
You are speaking as an authority and pushing the idea that all your comments are facts based on unsubstantiated claims. However, you cannot prove those samples are Hindu just as I cannot prove the 2-3 samples I am thinking might be Muslim actually are. The difference is that I am willing to admit that but you seem to actually think your claims are facts that everyone must accept as the truth.
Also, I do not care for arguing over Jinnah and his phenotype and genetics in relation to these samples. It’s rather pointless.
@Skipper
Fairly homogenous? Did you not notice some samples showed 49-53% of the Baloch component while others showed 42-44%? One that showed only 21% of the South Indian component while having 10% West African admixture? Another few that showed 8%, 4% and 2% West African admixture respectively that was lacking in the others? Also, Zack mentioned that the HGDP Sindhis can be divided into different groups based on closeness to the Baloch and W African admixture. There were also some showed 7-10% of the Caucasian component while others showed 13-17%. They might seem homogenous as a whole but they can be divided into different groups as Zack has pointed out.
Also, I pointed this out earlier but why must be Balochified ones have SW Asian admixture near the Baloch average near 9%? Even if they were Balochified, I would still suspect less than the Baloch themselves considering they are still of mixed Baloch and Sindhi origins and due to the randomness of inheritance. More importantly, why could not the Balochified ones show very elevated Baloch components (49-53%)? The Baloch average for the Baloch component is 54% so it’s pretty clear that these individuals are the ones Zack is referring when he suggests “closeness†to the Baloch samples.
wrong info
muhammad ali jinnah is not a kutchi
his roots are from rajkot
kathiawar is not kutch
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Map_GujDist_Saurastra.png
We already have two Kutchi Muslim samples: the Gujarati Muslim Khoja HRP0213 and the Gujarati Halai Bhatia HRP0108. And stop posing silly questions; I can ask you the same thing- what makes you an authority on Balochis? Are you a Balochi by any chance? No you aren't.
On the other hand, I am a Gujarati. And I actually predicted that the Guajrati_b would not all be Brahmins and I even predicted that the samples with the lowest ASI would be (similar to) Kutchis. If you don't remember then go and check our PM exchanges on Anthroscape to refresh your memory.
Also, if the discussion is clearly about gujarati-b_NA20858, gujarati-b_NA20870, and the gujarati-b_NA20872 samples, then why did you bring Dawoodi Bohra's into the debate? And like I said- the Muslims would have to be the Kutchi type Muslims, like the Memons and not the Muslim Patel or Lower Caste convert types. These Kutchi type Muslim would then also have to battle the the odds of being in signification numbers in Texas, U.S. in association with a Hindu Gujarati community to even have a chance of turning up among the Gujarati_b's. Or are you suggesting that the surveyors went door to door looking for Gujarati donors? It certainly sounds like you are.
And what indication is there that the Sindhi Muslim samples are Balochified? What are the odds of each and every Sindhi sample turning out Balochified? Not very high I'll tell you that.
I am not suggesting that Sindhi Muslims cannot have Balochi ancestry, I'm saying that the majority of Sindhi Muslim samples we have on file are not Balochified. It's clear that they aren't Balochified- because if they were- then the samples would display a much higher Baloch component. So far, only a couple of samples have higher Baloch count. sindhi_HGDP00179 for instance, seem has 53% Baloch component:
S Indian 28%
Baloch 53%
Caucasian 10%
NE Euro 4%
Siberian 1%
Papuan 1%
American 1%
SW Asian 3%
The Baloch count in most other Sindhi samples is well withing the normal range. Sindhi samples displaying higher Baloch than that of other NW Indians such as Punjabis, does not indicate Baloch admixture. Its normal for populations situated side by side to share certain characteristics. (The Baloch component is aptly named so only because it occurs the highest in Balochi populations at 54%. That, however, does not mean that every Sindhi that displays Baloch at 48% or so, acquired it recently from intermixing with Balochi populations. It just means that that the two populations are related.)
I also have never stated that Muslims must have exotic admixture. But the samples that do show exotic elements like trace African in all likelihood do not belong to Hindu donors.
You guys are imagining things and making up ethnic, religious and geographical origins for various people. I would strongly advise you to refrain.
Stop lying. gujarati-b_NA20858, gujarati-b_NA20870, and gujarati-b_NA20872 are not like the Kutchi Muslm samples. All the Muslim Kutchi and Sindhi Muslim samples we have on file have file have SW Asian and trace African. These components are completely missing from those three Gujarati Samples. What other explanation could there be except that the sample belong to donors from a highly endagamous community, which has not had the chance to mix with the Muslim Kutchis.
And if the trace African components you are importing is noise, then that 'noise' is completely missing from the Hindu Kutchi samples. The Mediterranean and Beringian components are irrelevant since even the Hindu samples display such components.
Don't compare your conjectures to mine when your conjectures have already been proven wrong. On the other hand, I predicted that the samples with the Gujarati samples with the least ASI would belong to Hindu donors.
@Zack
My apologies.
@Junaid
I was talking about Jinnah's roots.
hey Zack,,,,, good work. is there proof of these gujarati b individuals being hindu? or kutchi hindu? as skipper said? thanks.
There is no information on any of the Gujarati samples from HapMap except that they are from Houston, TX.
I divided them into Gujarati A and Gujarati B. The Gujarati A are very closely clustered and likely come from one ethnic community. The Gujarati B are diverse.
yes me too. ali jinnah's roots are not kutch that is plain wrong though. his roots are from gondal
gondal is in rajkot in central arm of gujrat which is separate from kutch
those are two separate areas
Minor correction, I meant to say: "I predicted that the Gujarati samples with the least ASI would belong to Kutchis."
@Junaid-
I did not mean that Jinnah was actually born in Kutch. What I meant was that he was a 'Lohana' type Gujarati. His grandfather, JinnahaBhai, was a Hindu Lohana that converted to Islam due to a fallout he had with the local Lohana community.
Also, don't rely on Wikipedia. Instead, search reputable sources, like Google Books.
Point out a source then.
"Jinnah was the grandson of Premjibhai thakkar (Gondal), who, to support his family, entered into trading of fish in the coastal town of Veraval. His business, however, clashed with the strong moral ethics of the Lohanas. As a result, he was ostracised from the community. He made enough money in this trade and attempted to rejoin the community. He also discontinued the fish business. However, the Lohana leaders, in their wisdom, did not accept his request"
http://books.google.com/books?id=o0M_AQAAIAAJ&q=Jinnah+Lohana&dq=Jinnah&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bvv-Uc2iMseu4APM0oDYDg&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAw
http://books.google.com/books?id=haMcdXagnDEC&pg=PA122&dq=Muhammad+Ali+Jinnah&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EPH-UYuHB9P64AOO_YDgBg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Muhmad%20Ali%20Jinnah&f=false
I also managed to locate all the Indian associations in Texas:
http://www.courtesyindia.com/usa/indian-associations/all-associations/Texas.aspx
The one to look for is this one, from Houston:
http://www.gujaratisamajofhouston.org/Default.aspx
@Zack
You shouldn't try to teach a native Gujarati about his own people. It just looks silly.
Neither Gondal nor Veraval are in Kutch.
Understand that I will not let people perpetuate false information about people from my ethnic background.
And I've already posted several sources. It says "comment awaiting moderation." I expect replies from both you (Zack) and junaid.
@Zack
Lohanas are not native to Kathiawar, they are from regions much north- in Kutch and Sindh. This is something that even a small Gujarati child knows (which of-course is exaggeration to point out how ludicrous this debate really is- though not on my part). Moving to a different part of Gujarat or to a different country does not change ones ethnic composition:
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=ljbS-I5Y8WMC&pg=PA32&dq=Lohana&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aSX_Ueq6F8r-4APiw4CICA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Lohana&f=false
^If I was born in Tamil Nadu- I would not become an ethnic Tamil. I would still be a Gujarati residing in Tamil Nadu. In the same way, Lohana's ethnic origins lie in the Kutch and Sindh regions, which makes them different from other Gujaratis.
In addition, the only reason why I didn't call Jinnah a Lohana, was because that term is only applied to Hindus with origins in Kutch or Sindh- while Jinnah is a Muslim, born in Pakistan to Muslim parents whom had Hindu Lohana roots/ancestry. Unlike the Ismali Khojas or Memons whom converted to Islam centuries back- Jinnah is not a recent convert either. Hence, the term 'Kutchi', was the most appropriate to use- since I wanted to put emphasis on his ethnic background and not his religious affiliation.
So are Lohanas Sindhis or Kutchis? And if Jinnah wasn't really a Lohana because of his religion, then does a Jatt suddenly change into a non-Jatt by changing religion?
Anyway this discussion is beyond useless now since we are not analyzing Jinnah's biogeographical origins.
I made a mistake here: "Unlike the Ismali Khojas or Memons whom converted to Islam centuries back- Jinnah is not a recent convert either. "
Should actually be:
Unlike the Ismali Khojas or Memons whom converted to Islam centuries back- Jinnah is a recent convert to Islam.
Lohanas are from Kutch, but if you go back far enough then they are from Sindh.
I cannot comment on Jatts, but the Lohanas that converted to Islam refer to themselves as Khoja:
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=Qiyy6skgPfoC&pg=PA96&dq=Khojas&hl=en&sa=X&ei=C8v_UY7KFpOo4AOLhIGIAg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Khojas&f=false
Or Memons:
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=QU_yPk0koH8C&pg=PA118&dq=memons&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aSX_Ueq6F8r-4APiw4CICA&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=memons&f=false
^As far as I know, there is no such thing as a Muslim Lohana. Their origins and ancestry maybe the same, but the title is different.
And yeah, this debate is pointless. It was a Red Herring introduced by junaid anyway.
The HGDP Sindhis can be divided into several groups based on African admixture and similarity to Baloch.
Thank you for this comment Zack. This suggests there is a definite "possibility" some of the HGDP Sindhis are Balochified or admixed with other populations such as the Siddi or Makrani Baloch (W African admixed).
Possible, but it's likely that it comes from direct admixture, given that Sindhis were the ones notoriously engaged in the slave trade of Africa, trafficking great numbers of these slaves around Asia and parts of the Middle East.
It was vogue for Sindhi/Baloch superiors to purchase Siddi slaves and hire them to work in their own houses. These would be passed around "gifts" for elite consumption to the Indian Muslim aristocracy.
@Paul,
Sindhi & Pathan
"7 Pathan and 14 Sindhi samples with evidence of outlying ancestry (mostly West African related) that appears to be due to mixture in the last handful of generations"
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7263/extref/nature08365-s1.pdf
it is interesting to see that Gujarati muslims are different genetically from other communities, is there a reason for this? Also it is interesting to see that muslims communities from Pakistan and even North India have higher (Caucasian) component, almost always. What is the historical reason for this? is it because they perhaps mixed with Central asians and Afghans/Pashtuns?
I think more of the admixture is from Iranian and Arab merchants than Pashtuns or Central Asians in most cases. I could be wrong though as there is documentation about some Baloch settling in Gujarat.
There is no record of large numbers of Iranian or Arabs settling in south asia. So far from what I can see from these spreadsheets, almost all muslims participants seem to have high Caucasian component. There were lots of afghans of persian speaking background and pashtuns who settled in northern south asia, it is mostly likely their genetic contribution.
You need to learn about the history of Gujarat. Many Iranian and Arab merchants came by sea. I don't know about the history of Farsi speaking Afghans settling in Gujarat.
@Paul. The history of Pashtuns dates far back to antiquity in Gujarat.
"The Pashtuns' first national hero was Mahmud of Ghazna (AD 999-1026), also known as Butshikan, or the 'idol breaker', who invaded India several times and finally plundered the wealth of the Somnath Temple in Gujarat on the coast of the Arabian Sea. Pashtuns revere Mahmud of Ghazna for having overcome all the odds in crossing the Thar Desert on his way to Somnath." --- The Foreign Policy of Pakistan: Ethnic Impacts on Diplomacy 1971-1994
Earliest documented settlement of Pashtuns happened during the rule of Muhammad bin Tughluq, Turkic Sultan of Delhi, in the 14th Century, when military colonies were established. The Islamic history of Gujarat was for most part connected to the UP Delhi political center, while still retained an Independent Sultanate. In 1576, when the Mughal emperor Akbar the Great conquered the Kingdom and annexed it to the Mughal Empire, periods of further Afghan immigration ensued.
Iqbal Hussain, in his first-rate study, The Rise and Fall of the Ruhela Chieftaincies in 18th Century India describes their composition:
“Most Afghan immigrants came from three distinct regions. The first was the region to the north and west of Attock, comprising Bajaur, Tiran and Swat and the intervening areas, mainly inhabited by the Lodis and Yusufzais. The second was a large, and in parts fertile, district, called Bangash, which lay to the south of the Tirah range, bounded by the Safed Koh Range in the north-west and by the Indus on the west. The Afghans of this range mainly settled in Northern India, including present Uttar Pradesh. The third region, which comprised southeastern Afghanistan and the adjoining parts of Pakistan, contained the Panni, Tarin and Kakar tribes, amongst others who largely settled in Gujarat and the Deccan…"
“…they served as soldiers, but were also ready to act as merchants or engage in trade, particularly in horses. The Afghans generally retained these characteristics until the beginning of the twentieth century…. Those who had engaged in trade often changed their profession and became soldiers.â€
Pathans of Gujarat form a distinct Gujarati Muslim community. Common last names include Khan, Bangash, Durrani, and Yousafzai.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathans_of_Gujarat#cite_note-3
"With the breakup of the Mughal Empire, the Babi and Jalori Pathans became rulers of the princely states of Junagadh and Palanpur. The 19th Century saw a further settlement of Pashtuns, mainly Ghilzais Tanoli from Afghanistan, with many settling in the cities of Ahmedabad, Surat and Khambhat. They are divided into twelve lineages, the main ones being the Babi, Sama, Khanzada, Yousafzai, Lohani, Mandori, Suleiymani, Surat Turk, Miana and Zadran.The bulk of the Gujarat Pathans belong to the Jalori tribe."
The Nawabs, and their descendants of a number of princely states, the main ones being Balasinor, Radhanpur, Palanpur and Junagadh claim Afghan descent.
Finally, Independence activist, Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan ("pride of Afghans") otherwise know as "Frontier Gandhi", who became legendary for his message of nonviolent opposition to the British Raj drew a major source of inspiration from his life-long close ally - Mahatma Gandhi.
Also muslim sindhis seem to be very different from Gujarati hindus, despite being neighbors
I think Sindhi hindus would be more similar to Gujrati hindus if tested
This is not true. Sindhi Hindus might not have African or SW components- but they would not be similar to Middle-Caste or even Brahmin Gujaratis in ASI levels- since that is what you are insinuating.
You and a few others are trying to propagate the idea that every low ASI Gujarati individual is a Muslim, which is total hogwash and I have proof of it. Unfortunately, I cannot release such information as I'm sworn to confidentiality.
I wasn't talking about ASI levels, I am talking about Caucasian levels. it is defiantly high in muslims. Also Sindhi hindus most likely did not mix with any outsiders, so they would probably be similar to Gujrati hindus, their neighbours. Muslims are defiantly more West Asian then hindus, this is a proven fact both genetics wise and looks wise
Why should Sindhi Hindus be similar to Gujaratis? I would say that Sindhi Hindus and Muslims would probably be similar, if we exclude African and Balochi ancestry.
I expect sindhi hindus to be genetically in between sindhi muslims and gujarati hindus. Actually most of the higher caste sindhi hindus are going to be genetically more likely to be like sindhi as well as punjabi muslims from pakistan. I expect baloch component for unmixed sindhi hindus to be as high as for muslim sindhis or muslim punjabis , i have a feeling that it is geographic signature of the people living near indus river and its tributaries.
Sindhi muslims are mixed with Baloch, hindus are not, and they will definatly have higher ASI leves and less West Asian
Btw on Biodiversity forum, there was a Gujarati muslim girl, who's appearance was very (Iranian) is she in the spreadsheet? does anyone know?
also there is only one sindhi on the list with african component, he is clearly not the norm and could vary well be a makrani Sindhi,
It seems I was partially right. Excluding Punjabi and Haryanvi Jats, the HGDP Sindhi are more similar in their admixture proportions to Pashtuns than the HAP Punjabi are.
You mean the Xing Pakistani Arain Punjabis? Because you can't really compare the diverse Punjabi samples to the more homogenous Sindhi samples. Still, you're right by the slightest amount I think. The Sindhis and Arains are nearly the same themselves for the most part. Although, I think throwing out the two West African admixed Sindhis (10% and 8%) would bring their results even closer by a small amount.
HGDP Sindhis:
South Indian: 29%
Baloch: 46%
Caucasian: 10%
NE Euro: 6%
Mediterranean: 2%
SW Asian: 3%
Xing Arain Punjabis:
South Indian: 31%
Baloch: 44%
Caucasian: 10%
NE Euro: 7%
Mediterranean: 2%
SW Asian: 2%
I really do not understand why you consider similarity in admixture "proportions" amounting to genetic similarity. Two guys can have similar admixture proportions without having any genetic relation to each other. I think people are reading too much into these "components" which are not real populations at all, these are just nomenclature for specific ancestral traits falling under that particular "component", but the source of the same component in different populations could be entirely different both temporally as well as spatially eventhough the two populations can have same % of a particular component. For example south indian component in punjabis, sindhis , gujaratis etc. has totally different source, most probably it comes from assimilated tribal and lower strata populations in the immediate surrounding a given population , it will not come from mars for example.
Punjabis and Sindhis are two neighboring populations with historical and some cultural similarities. Their admixture components are very similar and I expected there to be genetic similarity becsuse of this. Also, having similar admixture proportions does definitely signify genetic similarity to a great extent for closely related populations. In fact, the Baloch and Brahui are a great example of this. They speak unrelated languages but their admixture components are nearly the same which indicates they are genetically very similar. Also, on PCA cluster plots, populations with similar admixture components cluster close together which indicates how close they are genetically. The sources for the components might vary for different populations but for neighboring populations, I do expect some commonality.
The baloch component is significant concerning the Mehrgarh culture of Baluchistan.However, as i am saying from eternity if there was a path to age the components both in individuals and groups that would have been very useful.
I am not surprised that soutern pakistani genetic component (Baloch component on harappa, Gedrosia on dienekes site) is the major component for all pakistani populations even for Kalash (43%) who live in the extreme northern part of pakistan , punjabi arains from lahore (44%), pakistani sindhis (46%), Baloch and brahuis (58%) as most the populations always seem to have a particular physical look that they share more to each other than they do to indian populations. That look is definitely predominantly given by very high baloch component in pakistanis. This component is simply a signature of west asian neolithic farmers that colonized indus valley and the valleys defined by its tributaries.
So it does seem that South asia as a whole had two major very different populations (Baloch/West Asian component) and ASI (Ancestor South Indian) that effected the genetics
So in a way you can South Indians, who have the highest ASI still are pretty different from lets Pakistanis, who are clearly carrying Baloch/West Asian in very high numbers
''This component is simply a signature of west asian neolithic farmers that colonized indus valley and the valleys defined by its tributaries.''
A few questions-
1.Why then the component is called Baloch?
2.Why does it peaks in Baloch population?
3. What exactly makes the component ''west asian''?
However, though farming didn't started in South asia with Mehrgarh but with Lahuradewa, mehrgarh was the seed of the Indian culture and civilization with IVC which is also as old as 7380b.c.
good day.
The reason it peaks in Baloch is mostly because Baloch have mixed less with other people. This component is not native to south asia, even though yes it probably arrived long time back
However that said, the overall appearance of Indian people is generally linked, doesn't matter if they are punjabis or Tamils, there is something Indic about the features, I guess the ASI across south asia contributes to this look
i agree, but tell or better say inform me why it is not native?
good day.
Baloch component is similar to north/middle eastern components and is very different from the ASI south asian component, this is the reason it is not called south asian. The West Asians most probably arrived from present day Iraq/Iran area and settled in Balochistan and around indus river, obviously then they mixed with local ASI population who was living there at the time.
There is nothing wrong for it to be similar with north/middle eastern components as of geography and ancient archaeology confirms trade and other types of connections that IVC+Mehrgarh had with those parts, the practical thing is that It peaks in the area where an ancient neolithic civilization had a nice life neighbouring another and more lived Neolithic culture of IVC/SSC and they probably pre-date Mesopotemia as well!
The most probable happening is that Baloch component was responsible for the emergence of Mehrgarh+IVC/SSC with a little West Asian one which increased after the intrusions of 6000B.C. and 4500B.C. which likely brought other components also.
ASI came into the play only around 2000B.C. as latest researches indicate talkable ANI-ASI mix started on that period where climatic catastrophe as evident forced the IVC and Related people move eastwards and southwards which led them to get mixed with Dravidian+Munda related populations of those areas.
Good day.
Whether you find is difficult to digest but the fact is that Baloch component is indeed signature of West asian "farmers" settlement in indus valley and its tributaries. Its closest component is "Caucasian" component which peaks itself in near east/West asian region of Georgia, eastern turkey and north western iran, surprisingly baloch component is still above 20% for the most of the populations living in those regions of west asia.
Have you tested the diversity of those alleles? If not, why are you considering it a fact. To me that appears to track a movement from South Asia to the west in the Upper Paleolithic. It is so old that it has become difficult to figure out where it originated. It is similar to the k5 component of Metspalu et al.
Mr Parasar stop being an indian or hindu nationalist, it's not a movement from south asia to west asia. West asians, even Iranians have almost no south asian component or ASI component in them, if this baloch component is south asian, surely you would expect ASI/south asian component in West Asian populations. Balochistan itself is not even south asia to begin with, it has a seperate history from India.
Actually this is the problem with indians, they cannot think about anything without their national bias, but this is not the way science works. In science one needs to analyze the things without any racial or national bias to reach to logical conclusiong. It is quite clear from the results of Harrapa project that the true signature of "indian" ancestary is ASI/south indian component which is at negligible levels in proper west asians excluding iranians wher it has 3-4% presence on average.
The Baloch component in my opinion is Dravidian. Look at where the Baloch component is highest. Mainly Pakistanis and NW Indians along with upper caste Indians. Heck, even Tamil Brahmins have higher Baloch than Iranians. What does that tell you? It tells me that this is an Indian component. Or South Asian if you prefer.
The Dravidians without a shadow of a doubt already had this component.
Metspalu et al had this say about k5:
"Looking at the Pakistani populations (0.51) and Baluchistan (Balochi, Brahui, and Makrani) in particular (0.59), the proportion of the light green component (k5) is significantly higher than in the Indian populations, (on average 0.26) (Figure S5). Importantly, the share of this ancestry component in the Caucasus populations (0.50) is comparable to the Pakistani populations ...
However, within India the geographic cline (the distance from Baluchistan) of the Indus/Caucasus signal (PC4 or k5) is very weak
there is only a very weak correlation (r = 0.4) between probability of membership in this cluster and distance from its closest core area in Baluchistan (Figure S6). Instead, a more steady cline (correlation r = 0.7 with distance from Baluchistan) of decrease of probability for ancestry in the k5 light green ancestral population can be observed as one moves from Baluchistan toward north (north Pakistan and Central Asia) and west (Iran, the Caucasus, and, finally, the Near East and Europe)...
Our simulations show that one can detect differences in haplotype diversity for a migration event that occurred 500 generations ago, but chances to distinguish signals for older events will apparently decrease with increasing age because of recombination. In terms of human population history, our oldest simulated migration event occurred roughly 12,500 years ago and predates or coincides with the initial Neolithic expansion in the Near East. Knowing whether signals associated with the initial peopling of Eurasia fall within our detection limits requires additional extensive simulations, but our current results indicate that the often debated episode of South Asian prehistory, the putative Indo-Aryan migration 3,500 years ago (see e.g., Abdulla15) falls well within the limits of our haplotype-based approach. We found no regional diversity differences associated with k5 at K = 8. Thus, regardless of where this component was from (the Caucasus, Near East, Indus Valley, or Central Asia), its spread to other regions must have occurred well before our detection limits at 12,500 years."
Per Metspalu there are two very old components in South Asia - one essentially limited to South Asia and the other peaking in the Baloch and the Caucasus with an extension into Europe, but even for this component the direction cannot be discerned.
@Reality Check
I invited you to provide evidence of allele diversity to prove direction of movement as frequencies cannot do that, but you went on some "indian" tangent. Please cut out the ad hominems and stick to a science based discussion.
Zack, thanks for updating. It's interesting to compare the two Bhatias:
One is from Sindh, and the other is from Halai in Gujarat. The two are overall similar despite the geographical distance between the two regions post-partition:
HRP0085 Thathai Bhatia
S Indian 25%
Baloch 46%
Caucasian 13%
NE Euro 10%
NE Asian 1%
American 3%
Mediterranean 1%
SW Asian 1%
E African 1%
HRP0108 Halai Bhatia (Gujarati Kathiawar - Jamnagar)
S Indian 25%
Baloch 46%
Caucasian 11%
NE Euro 13%
NE Asian 2%
American 1%
SW Asian 2%
E African 1%
A trend is observed.
The difference is that in the case of the Sindhi Bhatia, the Caucasian component goes higher than the NE Euro, whereas in the Gujarati Bhatia, it's the vice versa. Their autosomal composition being preserved in such a manner is likely directly related to the Bhatia caste observing rigid orthodoxy at all times.
Both showcase exotic admixtures through trace SW Asian and East African, too.
I really do not understand how appearances work, now looking at Bhatia's lower south indian level and pretty high Caucasian and northern euro level, I was thinking they will look more west asian, however they are totally indic looking from the pics I have seen of bhatia caste: https://www.google.ca/search?q=bhatia+caste&client=firefox-a&hs=ub&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=h2zwUbGdLcXCqgGv1ICoBA&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1400&bih=858#imgdii=_
now granted these are only two people tested and perhaps they are outliner population not representing bhatia caste
That is very interesting. I did not expect such a phenotype. Just goes to show the discordance between genotype and phenotype.
one thing though is that I am not sure who the samples belong too, muslims or hindus. It is well known that muslims of the Sindh/Gujarat region have mixed more with others like Iranians, Pashtuns etc... the pics you see on google are mostly of hindu background people
The Sindhi HGDP individuals have lower NE Euro component than some of the Gujarati_B. None of them have greater than 11% compared to one of the Gujarati_B individuals which has up to 16%.
How does that make sense if Sindh is more north of Gujarat? I should expect Sindhis to be much more European than that.
I notice that the Sindhi HGDP also have SW Asian and higher Baloch than the Gujarati_B. Could the Sindhi HGDP therefore have a reduced NE Euro component because there has been a recent mixture with Balochs?
That is the only explanation I can think of for now.
NE euro component is that high in any of the pakistani populations , even for Kalash and pashtuns it is on average 11% which is lower than punjabi jatts at 13% and haryana jat at 18%. It is clear from the results that the NE euro component actually peaks in haryana among jats. All of the pakistani populations are characterized by their higher Caucasus component which peaks in kalash and pashtuns at 18% and 16% respectively. Even pakistani punjabi jatt participant is also characterised with higher 13% Caucasus component than his 8% NE component, a punjabi from lahore among harappa participants is also has 16% Caucasus component. So it is quite clear that pashtuns, kalash, muslim kashmiris, pakistani punjabis, sindhis , baloch and brahuis are all characterized by their higher Caucasus component. NE euro component plays the same role for indian jatts/jats and brahmins etc. I am smelling that pakistani populations are more drifted towards iranians due to higher Caucasus component which is not surprising at all since a lot of pakistanis are mistaken for iranians in europe and america, I have now found the reason behind it , thanks harappa DNA project.
Sorry I wanted to say "NE euro component is NOT that high in any of the pakistani populations"
Well... I would say it's interesting because the Gujarati Bhatia has more NE Euro component than his Sindhi counterpart who on other hand has more Caucasian. I did not expect that there would be this subtle difference among people of the exact same caste based on geography.
What do you think about Indians who have it vice versa such as
HRP0047 Maharashtrian Desastha Brahmin, who has 8% Caucasian but 5% Euro?
HRP0259 Rajasthani Agarwal - 6% Caucasian and 1% NE Euro?
HRP0292 Gujarati Jain - 6% Caucasian and 4% NE Euro?
HRP0238 Pushtikar Brahmin - 12% Caucasian and 10% NE Euro?
Why do they have higher Caucasian than NE Euro, if as you say this trend is observed only in Pakistani and Muslim populations, and Indians are different?
Well, I'm not sure about the backgrounds of the Sindhis but their admixture components do seem to indicate they are of potentially Balochified origins. However, in the case of the Gujarati B with 16% NE Euro (possibly a Brahmin), I'd say that is more down to caste endogamy and the individual's family preserving the component along the possibility of individual inheritance due to the other "potential" Brahmins from the Gujarati B samples all having lower NE Euro scores than gujarati-b_NA20862 yet others having slightly lower South Indian scores or higher Baloch and Caucasian scores.
True, internal group variation always exists but the Gujarati B individual with 16% NE Euro opens up the potential for possibly more to hit that target. If Gujarati Brahmins following this project from Texas could get themselves independently tested with 23andme, and send their results in then that would be great.
There is very strong evidence for that individual to be a Brahmin based on the fact that HRP0033 Rajasthani Brahmin scores a close second.
NA20910 is also likely to be a Brahmin because aside from the elevated 13% NE Euro, he also has Beringian and Med in same measure as NA20862 except for the American being substituted for Siberian.
I understand that some Gujarati Brahmins have their origins in Brahmin communities of Rajasthan so that could explain the reason that NA20850 has the same exotic 2% NE Asian, 1% American and 2% Med admixtures as HRP0033 Rajasthani Brahmin, perhaps indicating distant or indirect contact between the two groups through the journey of migrations.
Also, one Brahmin sub-caste may have a different pattern of results than another so that's worth taking into consideration.
Also, why is the Mediterranean component so much higher in Gujarati_b NA20904 at 5% compared to the others.
What is the source origin for this?
Could it be that since Gujarat is a coastal state some of this component being in Gujarati_b samples might be from trade with ancient Greeks, and real Mediterranean and West Asian populations along the Red Sea route? I know that this region of western India had strong trading relations with Egypt, Mesopotamia and Sumer in the Persian Gulf dating back to IVC times.
Yes, I realize many people think the Geno:2 reference populations are worthless and factually incorrect, but the West Indian reference population was shown to have on average 9% Mediterranean, which came out higher than the other parts of India that were sampled, so perhaps there is that potential for greater amounts being found in Gujaratis with more independent sampling and going on the admixture breakdown of Gujarati_b.
Perhaps, it does have something to do with being a coastal state and the people historically being preoccupied in sea trade.
north east euro is a very old component, pakistani population probably had this more then Indians before they mixed with the Iranians or Afghans. also the 18% jatts is only for 5 samples, I really doubt that represent all of jatts. European component is clearly not shown in Indians Physically, I have never seen an Indian with blonde hair or blue eyes, at least with northern pakistani populations, you can still say that at least 15-20% of the people have those features
Do you have a date on these components? Also, have you ignored all the times that Zack has mentioned that these results do not actually necessarily represent any real ancestry? We have no idea how old the Caucasian or NE Euro scores are exactly. The fact that you keep insinuating that most of these very old "components" are seen physically in indigenous populations is quite disturbing.
then why do pakistanis have more caucasian then indians? it is clear that northern euro came to the region early and then the Caucasian came, because Muslims in general from Pakistan and north india have that component more then Hindus.
They really don't other than the HGDP Pashtuns and Baloch who have 16% and 14% respectively. The HGDP Sindhis and Xing Punjabi Arains both have 10% on average which isn't really different from some of their neighboring NW Indians. Actually, the Kashmiri Pandits even have 12% while the Punjabi Jatts and most of the other Punjabis have around 10% as well (other than the Ramgarhia who have 8%) and the Haryanvi Jatts have 9%. Also, the 4 individual Harappa Pashtuns (3 Afghan + 1 Pakistani) may have a higher average at 20% but they also have lower Baloch averages and higher East Eurasian averages than the HGDP Pashtuns. In fact, the HGDP Pashtuns would have essentially no East Eurasian admixture other than noise if it wasn't for the individual who is about 30% East Eurasian likely due to some type of Turkic admixture.
In general, it seems admixed Muslim population seem to show higher amounts of the Caucasian component than their entirely indigenous Hindu counterparts but it is also found at around 8-14% among non-Muslims in NW/Northern India.
I am assuming the higher Caucasian component is linked to perhaps the Iranian/Afghan movement to the north south asia region during the middle ages. obviously they inter married with the local muslim population and not hindus and others
while the northern euro could be as old as 3000 years old, when indo aryans supposedly came, this is why even if jatts have 18% euro component ( which I doubt anyways) they dont show any physical characteristics of Europeans and rather totally look Indian
You can't have it both ways. Even if you assume the NE Euro component is much older, you can't argue that the Punjabi and Haryanvi Jatts have 12-18% of the NE Euro component not true while arguing that the Caucasian component of North/West Indian Muslims being "real."
Finally, I've already pointed out how disturbing it is for you to attempt to link these admixture components directly to phenotype. Especially, for entirely indigenous populations.
if the component is older, then it doesn;t reflect on physical appearance, the northern euro is most likely 3000 years old, so it doesn't matter if jatts have 12 to 18% of that, the fact is you look nothing like europeans and totally Indian because the component is so old
Caucasian component is recent, probably 500-700 years old, this is why many muslims still look different from hindus
"If" the component is this or that. "If" it effects phenotype. All you're doing is making unsupported assumptions to support your feeble agenda.
You also have no evidence to suggest how recent the Caucasian component is any of the Muslim populations. Thus, your argument is based rather on groundless claims rather than any type of evidence or studies.
Muslims have higher caucasian component, this is clearly suggesting it is recent, or else muslim, hindus will have equal amounts of this component, just like the northern euro is mostly same in eastern pakistanis and north indians, doesn't matter which religion
@Parasar
''Have you tested the diversity of those alleles? If not, why are you considering it a fact. To me that appears to track a movement from South Asia to the west in the Upper Paleolithic. It is so old that it has become difficult to figure out where it originated. It is similar to the k5 component of Metspalu et al.''
Ignore most of the guys here, they are mostly semi-educated retards.
There is a great possibility that the Baloch component is Indigenous to South Central Asia which moved West and East as well but in a later stage when it was already admixed with SW asian and other components.
It is also a fact that ANI folks mixed with the ASI folks only from 2000b.c. in a considerable manner so it is not surprising at all that ASI is mostly absent out side India though there are exceptions like in the case of Rostov Scythians which may reflect their close to SC Asian origin.
good day.
^ it may be south/central asian, but it is not south asian (indian) only ASI or south indian component can be considered Indian, south central asia is places like Balochistan, Afghnistan, western Pakistan, basically anything west of the indus river, It is clear the west asian compoent is very different from the south indian one, thus there is a huge difference in lets say baloch people and Indians
@Imran Khan
Sir, i have great respect for you, your feats in cricket are admirable so is your attempt to change Pakistan by entering in politics but with due respect i'm afraid to say your knowledge in geography needs nourishment-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Asia#Geography
Have a great day.
^ what do these modern geographical terms really mean? they are stupid created by westerners with no knowledge of the area, it is clear that there is huge cultural and genetic divide between places like balochistan, afghanistan, western pakistan and what you call India, they are not the same. The west asian (baloch) component belongs to these places, not India, sure the NW indians do have high of that component, but that is mainly because that area of India is close to these places. As a whole ASI is the majority component in Indians. ASI is the main component that gives the Indian or Indic look to Indians
You are trying to deduce physical characteristics based on the various components, which is ridiculous. In Iran, the Baloch people are comparatively darker, and the average Iranian thinks they look Indian.
And the average Tamil uppercaste has more of the Baloch than an average Iranian. In other words, Baloch is a North Indian component.
Here is the data:
Tamil Brahmin: 38% Baloch
Punjabi: low 40s
Sindhi: low 40s
Pashtun: 34 %
In other words, Tamil Brahmins have more Baloch than Pashtuns.
So, saying that the Baloch component is Pakistani is ridiculous.
@Curious
Actually, it is true the Baloch component peaks in the HGDP Baloch and Brahui at 58% or so. In addition, the HGDP Pashtuns from Kurram Valley have 42% of the component. The individual HAP participants are slightly different as primarily two of them have their higher Caucasian and East Eurasian components bringing their Baloch down. Still, this Baloch component is very much part of the ancestry of all South Asians but it isn't really North Indian but the Neolithic West Eurasian ancestry for South and South-Central Asians.
Metspalu et all has dated the Baloch component to be older than 12,000 years. So, why can't it be a paleolithic component? And when does a component become indigenous? Since the component is so old, it is therefore native.
@Paul,
The component entitled Baloch (in conjunction with a few others) correlates quite well within South Asia (but not elsewhere) with N mtDNA while the component entitled South Indian with M mtDNA. N and M cover almost 100% of South Asian populations, but M drops markedly as you cross the Indus, and especially in Iran and further west.
N is more complex. There is no doubt that for South Asia its frequency peaks in the NW and the cline is there. It tends to be absent in same tribes in which Baloch is absent.
Therefore diversity of N could give us a close approximation of the origins of the Baloch component. Unfortunately, the same problem arises with N too though, as it is so old in India, West Asia, Europe, Australia, and East Asia that it just not possible to pinpoint is origin. It was supposed to have come to South Asia from Arabia soon after the exodus from Africa, but Saudi studies don't seem to confirm that.
"no archaic N and/or M autochthonous lineages in the Arabian Peninsula were found."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1810519/
"Although there is evidence of Neolithic and more recent expansions in the Arabian Peninsula, mainly detected by (preHV)1 and J1b lineages, the lack of primitive autochthonous M and N sequences, suggests that this area has been more a receptor of human migrations, including historic ones, from Africa, India, Indonesia and even Australia, than a demographic expansion center along the proposed southern coastal route." http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/8/45
On the other hand, especially for archaic and autochthonous N lineages, see Australia:
http://i47.tinypic.com/6ypjk8.jpg
And what is the % of tamil brahmin in tamil nadu, not more than 2-3%. Other tamil castes do not have much higher Baloch component. And even tamil brahmin have 47% south indian component which is much higher than their 38% baloch component. At best they can be described as a south indian group with significant baloch like admixture. On the other hand for pashtuns, kalash, sindhis, punjabis, baloch and brahvis it is their principal component and all these populations can be considered baloch like (hypothetically) populations with other exotic admixtures such as south indian, caucasian, NE components etc.
Here is the data,
pakistani punjabi arains: 44% baloch
pakistani sindhis : 46%
pakistani kalash : 43%
pakistani pashtuns: 42%
pakistani kashmiri : 41%
pakistani baloch : 56%
pakistani brahui : 58%
And all these populations are quite homogenious in their ethnic makeup. We do not have dalits making 60% of populations as in the case of india. In pakistan dalit like populations make less than 10% of the population primarily in pakistani punjab and pakistani sindh.
Whereas in the case of indians only selected high castes have elevated baloch component which is mostly in the range of 30-38% , the vast majority of indians have baloch component 0-30%. Whereas indians of all castes excluding higher castes in north western regions have 35-80% south indian component both for proper south indians as well as most of the indian living in their so-called north india (UP, Rajasthan, utrakhand, MP, Bihar etc.). Actually these results suggest that there is no genetic difference between so-called "south indians" and "north indians" within india, most of them are actually genetically south indians irrespective of their current habitat.
Per Metspalu et all, the Baloch signal does not necessarily get weaker as we move South. The signal is weaker when you head north and west. Meaning central Asia and Iran. Iranians have lower Baloch than Tamils do. This alone should tell you that this is an indigenous component.
are you blind, the signal clearly gets weaker once it moves to south india, also the reason Iranians and other have less of this component is because they have mixed with other populations around them much more then Tamils have for example. Tamils are basically ASI, only Tamils Brahmins are a bit more west asian then the regular Tamils. Also you say baloch look south indian lol, yet their south indian is only 14% lol. They dont look south indian, they are dark, but they look more semetic dark then south indian dark. Baloch component is more similar to other west asian components then it is to ASI, this is proven
@Imran Khan
''what do these modern geographical terms really mean? they are stupid created by westerners with no knowledge of the area, it is clear that there is huge cultural and genetic divide between places like balochistan, afghanistan, western pakistan and what you call India, they are not the same. The west asian (baloch) component belongs to these places, not India, sure the NW indians do have high of that component, but that is mainly because that area of India is close to these places. As a whole ASI is the majority component in Indians. ASI is the main component that gives the Indian or Indic look to Indians''
Believe me they have more technical knowledge on the subject than we do.
Stop calling it a west asian component it is Baloch from Baluchistan area and India had cultural affinities as west as Mundigak culture which shows strong IVC influence!
Indians have 2 main indigenous components 1. Baloch from Baluchistan and ASI of Southern and Eastern India and i'm not very sure about SW Asian also as it can be also very old like Paleolithic! others probably show neolithic influence.
Indians have various looks from various areas so don't know which specific look you are talking about.
'' Also you say baloch look south indian lol, yet their south indian is only 14% lol. They dont look south indian, they are dark, but they look more semetic dark then south indian dark. Baloch component is more similar to other west asian components then it is to ASI, this is proven''
The 14% South Indian component in baloch is significant as i say to all that on 2000B.C. IVC+Mehrgarh area was ANI dominant my guess is around 90% ANI with around 10% ASI admixture at best and it will be proven if they publish autosomal data of the Farmana skeletons.
@Imran Khan,Curious,Reality check,Paul,Parasar and others have you guys heard this news??-
http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/world/prince-william-has-indian-ancestry/article4814959.ece
Good day to all.
^ you are just a nationalist, that is all. This component does not peak with in the boundaries of India, it clearly gets lower once you go to main land India. It has clear relations to west asian components, then how is it indian?
Also there is a clear indic vibe in most people east of the indus river, that is what I call the indic look. Tamils have the highest ASI and they look the most Indian. ASI clearly creates that looks because ASI is the real Indian. People like Baloch, pashtuns, etc... west of the indus river do not look indian
@Imran Khan
''you are just a nationalist, that is all. This component does not peak with in the boundaries of India, it clearly gets lower once you go to main land India. It has clear relations to west asian components, then how is it indian?''
No i am not, i'm just a practical unbiased person.
There is a difference between the india now and how she was 70 years ago or when she was undivided!.
''Also there is a clear indic vibe in most people east of the indus river, that is what I call the indic look. Tamils have the highest ASI and they look the most Indian. ASI clearly creates that looks because ASI is the real Indian. People like Baloch, pashtuns, etc... west of the indus river do not look indian''
Your logic is at best 66 years old:-) and impractical.
good day.
to you everything is India lol. there was never such a thing as united India and certainly places west of the indus river can never be claimed as India, so baloch component is not Indian
@Imran Khan
Go see a brain surgeon i think the effects of that accident is still there.
Some of the Bs are obviously Brahmin and others probably not. Is there an admixture chart available just for Patels? There are two Patels on there and lots of Gujarati Bs, but I am assuming none of the Gujarati Bs are Patels.